Subsonic Ammunition for use with the Bramit Suppressor

You are correct one thing leads to another and the the original topic get lost. So lets start on on the early trials rifles. And when I can get to the range will update this I will need to test all my mosin rifles to see which one shoots best for the test. That will be interesting to see if pre war , war time or post war is the best.

Were the Bramits interchangeable or fitted to a specific rifle.

Yes, some info provided in my bigger Russian book. It's a summation from documents that I have.

I think we have the same docs, because we are both talking about info from St.Petersburg Artillery museum Archive (I also have some additional info from Tula archive). Likely we are talking about the rifle that was sent for the GECO mount installation in 1930? Or you are talking about earlier period?

And yes, documents says that scopes that were installed to Walther mount with solid rings were supposed be disassembled and soldedred by Optical factory in Pavshino. As far as I remember this was really done.

I think it's better to start discussion about early trial sniper rifles in another topic, Bramit area is very interesting and wide, and there is no need to mix it with something other

is this covered in one of your books? I just have copies of instructions to tula to pick the best rifles to send to germany for fitting of mounts like you say for reference for the Tula factory. Also a request from Tula that the optical sights should be fitted by the optical factory which I don't think got anywhere.

Documents that I have contain different information, and they are very detailed so I have no reasons to doubt in them. There is information how rifles were selected, how many rifles were selected, what was their price, when and what mounts were installed and so on. Prior to 1934 sniper rifles for military orders were selected from regular Tula production, all mounts were installed by Tula factory. Only single rifles were sent to Germany for mount intallation, those were sample pieces, that were supposed to show design to Soviets prior the main order was made

When I went to SPB and meet with the armour at the artillery museum he told me all the barrels were made at Ishezk and all were perfect so need to select rifles for accuracy that why during the war they ordered batches of rifles. I am, sure prewar the rifles sent to germany to have mounts and scopes fitted were tested for accuracy as I remember a note in the archive requesting the best rifles to be sent to germany.

I have original scans of this report (Column in the middle - rifle No41441., scope No. -231). Actually, in period when these scopes were tested, rifles for their installation were selected from regular rifles based on their accuracy result. Accuracy requirments for that period are mentioned in my book. So scopes and mounts were installed on rifles with good accuracy, and numbers in this report show rather perfomance of complete setup - scope, mount and rifle.

So Alexander they were getting a sub 2 moa grouping without the bramit which was good back in the day. But was the grouping better in the pre war sniper rifle trials ziess against the Busch scope

Maybe my post was not clear. These are results without Bramit.

Rifle with regular PU scope - 8.7 cm group (best 50% - 3.9 cm),

Rifle with night scope - 9.5 cm group (best 50% - 4.5 cm).

Rifle with night scope and Bramit - 34 cm group (best 50% - 15.8 cm).

But I think it's better to use 1942 results (after 20 shots were made in case new plugs were used) - 14.5-19 cm groups (best 50% - 5.8-6.5 cm).

Thanks it give me a starting point without bramit 19-28cm grouping with bramit group opens up to 8.7cm group best group 3.9cm(50%). interesting.

Actualy, in 1949 Bramit was tested with SPN night scope . Same rifle with regular PU scope had 8.7 cm group (best 50% - 3.9 cm), with night scope - 9.5 cm group (best 50% - 4.5 cm). Shooting was made from the bench.

During 1942 trials initial grouping (before 20-30 shots were made) was in 19-28 cm range at 100 m.

In the trials from 1949 did they say how they run as in did they shot the rifle without the bramit to see how the rifle grouped with x number of rounds. Then tried it with the bramit attached with the same number or rounds to compare results. Was it shot from a rest or prone?

first batch just need range time but all closed at present.

Yes they they used factory made subsonic cartridges. Unfirtunately report to do not contain information about they manufacturing year. Trials were made in 1949.

But I just checked the doc, 1942 results were much better. Depending from the rubber type group at 100 m. was in 14.5-19 cm range (best 50% - 5.8-6.5 cm). Report also mention that accuracy during first 20-30 shoots (in case new plugs were used) was much worse comaring to the further accuracy . So maybe 1949 report show initial accuracy

Was this with factory ammunition or the in country method ?

Yes. But accuracy on such distance will be very bad. For example, during postwar trials average grouping at 100 m. was 34 cm! (50% of best impacts - 15.8 cm)

so from the marking you can shoot it to 300mtrs but have the sights set at 1200mtrs?

There are some images in my Russian M91/30 book. Let us know about results you will get. I have original Bramit, but it is in very bad (relic) condition. interesting, that it was found with PEM sniper.

I have a reproduction Bramit which I will use for this experiment. On the drawings you have does it have the sight correction engraving for the unit.